Power With - Not Power Over

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Imagine a learning community in which kids don't just memorize facts. They develop real competence. They don't just answer questions, they ask better ones. And maybe most importantly, they begin to care not just about their own success, but about their community too. They become wise. Welcome back to Element is Everything, the podcast where we explore what happens when learning is focused on connection, competence, and courage. I'm your host, Terry Novicek, and today we're pulling back the curtain on sociocracy. It's a governance structure reliant on a high level of cooperation and compassion where everyone must agree, and just one objection can stop progress. So, say nine out of ten kids want pizza, that order doesn't get placed. Perspectives on sociocracy fall on a wide range. Some dismiss it as an inefficient process that hinders swift action. Others recognize that total agreement might sound nice, but that means someone is always having to compromise their desires and opinions. And then others believe it to be a peaceful and empowering way to govern. Today we're going to see what Katina Franklin-Sweeney has to say. As the director of Embark Center for Self-Directed Education, she is deep in the thick of a sociocratic learning community. In her learning community, adults trust young people enough to let go of control. And in her experience, that trust results in confident, thoughtful, and motivated learners. So grab your favorite beverage, bring your curiosity, and maybe even your inner child who always just wanted to figure it out on their own and have control of their own life. And let's talk about what happens when we stop controlling and start trusting. I feel like I should insert a quality disclaimer. We realized during editing that the internet connection during the interview was not very good. And so there are some glitchy parts. The problem is the content was so good we didn't want to pull it out. So I just want to apologize for the quality. And I hope that you still enjoy the content. So uh Katita, we met at the Aero Conference, and I really enjoyed your workshop. I would say like 100% of what you were, well, I should probably only say 90% of what you were presenting is what our schools do. And we didn't get a chance to talk, but Element Education, we have two schools. One's a K-8 Montessori. It's a hybrid program. The kids go four days a week and homesty a fifth day. The other one is homeschooling with kids having access to a learning center, virtual instruction, and a lot of things that we do out in the community. And the term though I had not heard before was sociocracy.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Sociocracy. So instead of the sh sociocracy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Okay. And so, well, first, why don't you tell me a little bit about uh you and embark, and then I'd love to dive into sociocracy.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Got it. Excellent. Um, so thank you, first of all, with chatting with for chatting with me. I'm really excited to talk to you. Um, my name is Katina Franklin-Sweetie, and I am a program advisor at Embark Center for Self-Directed Education in Leesburg, Virginia. And this is, we're going into our ninth year, and it's about my eight and a half year. So I I started a little bit after they began. So we began. And um, before that, I had worked in public school. I was a band clinician. So I would come in and do, I was your clarinet expert. So if band directors would hire me to help their kids learn their music. And one of the things that I loved about that is I loved music, but I loved working with kids that were really passionate and excited about what they were doing. And I also taught after school, I taught clarinet lessons. And as much as I loved that, that was a different vibe because a lot of the kids that came to me were really burnt out. Um, they were really working hard in conventional school. And um, a lot of my students actually just loved band. It was the only thing that kept them in school. So I used to call it Claropy, you know, because they would cry for 25 minutes and then I'd be like, okay, let's do a chromatic scale for five minutes so we can say we did, you know, some clarinet work. And what I was realizing through the years is that I was more of a just another adult in their lives that just really cared about them deeply and wanted to support them. So it became harder and harder for me to be in a system that was uh the children were experiencing harm in that system. I don't think school actively goes out to harm people, but for some people, it they just don't fit into it, which does cause harm. And so that became more and more painful through the years. And then um, when my own children were born, my husband and I felt strongly that it's their choice of what they want to be doing with their lives. So when they were five years old, we said, okay, do you guys want to go to school? And they both said no. And every year we'd check in, do you guys want to go to school? And they'd say no. And so we just sort of we we homeschooled, which turned into unschooling. And when they were probably around 11, 12, 13 years old, um that range, they really started needing more of a community and wanting more of a community. And I had already knew about the Sudbury model, which I loved. I love that democratic school model. So I was in the process of starting one when Andrea Cabilla McKay was starting Ever Center up in Leeds, where I was about an hour or 15 minutes away. And um, Andrea had done all that hard work there where I was having a lot of roadblocks, she had managed to get through a lot of them. And my oldest kid was like, you know, I'm not getting any younger here, and I don't really want to wait forever for you to do this. And even though I wanted to start a sub reschool, I didn't necessarily want to do it for my own offspring. I wanted to do it for all the other children that were like my kids too, like the ones that just didn't fit into conventional school that were always on my mind. And um, I called up Andrea and I was like, all right, tell me about Embark Center. You know, I'm calling about my own kids. I said, All right, you're telling me it's self-directed education. So does that mean they can self-direct themselves into video games or sleeping or never doing math? And she was like, Yes. I'm so grateful that I get to be with young people, right? Like where they are, who they are, what they want to be doing with their lives. It was a it and it still is a dream for me, a dream come true that I get to be with these kids. Um, so that's kind of how I got there.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Okay. Um, that's interesting. We share very similar stories in that regard. I didn't even realize that. Okay, so democratic school, how is this different?

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Okay, so the I think you said it really nicely with me talking about my past and what's attractive about a democratic school compared to conventional school, because, like I said, being in bands, that's a choice, right? That's an elective. So the kids that are there are there because they want to be there. And because they want to be there, they have that intrinsic internal motivation to meet their own goals. Of course, they have the goals of the whole organization, but you all have to work together to get there. So Democratic school means that the students at the school are integral to running the program. They have a say in what they want to be doing in the school, how the school runs, and what they want to be doing within with their lives in that program. So, what that means at Embark Center is that the kids create the classes. And I've been saying things like, oh, kids, you know, they're in charge of putting together all the classes. They're not necessarily putting it together from a list of classes we already have, which they can do, but they also can come up with classes that nobody has ever heard of that they want to be doing. So we've had kids say, I totally want to have a class about cults, or I want to have a class that's about real estate investment, or I'm autistic and I would like to teach a class of what it's like to be autistic in the world. And I want to call it autistic awareness and advocacy of how we can make the world a better place. So that's that's sort of a snapshot. And we get fun, all the classes are fun. Some of them are more serious than others, as you can imagine, but we get Minecraft and Roblox and Dungeons and Dragons and all sorts of things like that too. For a while, we had lunch where kids are like, I just want to go into town, you know, and find different restaurants. Or we had bread, you know, we had somebody that was like, bread, bread's not a class, but it ended up being this really fun class where they made all different kinds of bread. So that part is student generated, the creating of the programming, which includes field trips also and workshops. And if staff can't teach a class or kids can't teach the class, we look for volunteers in the community to come in. And we love this because it's a little subversive, too, because it's like we're gonna bring adults in from outside to see how fantastic these kids are, too, because it's frustrating when I hear people say kids these days, or oh, teenagers. I'm like, they're really wonderful people. Um, and the Democratic part also includes setting the budget and creating the schedule with all the holidays, hiring staff, making decisions about whether or not we should purchase our building, making decisions whether or not we should be part-time or full-time. So they have a say in all of that.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Wow. So what constitutes a class? Is it a one-time thing? Is it every Monday at four for a term or everything in between? That's a great question.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

So the classes really are once again generated by the kids with content, but generated for by the children and teens by what kind of time they want to be doing in that. So some of them are one hour a week on Mondays at two o'clock, right? Um, sometimes there'll be something that's twice a week, sometimes it just pops up randomly, sometimes it's just one. But most of them, when we think of classes at Embark, really are weekly for about an hour and they can last for a couple of weeks, a year, many years. The Crazy Crimes class has been going on for eight years. Like everybody loves that one. It's really fun. And so that time is really based on the needs of the people in the space. So even within the hour, if it finishes up early, that's great. We can finish up early. But sometimes you're in that zone and you want to keep going. So it can last longer. So there's some classes that we learned to schedule earlier in the day, like Minecraft or Dungeons and Dragons, because those people want to keep doing them and not have to stop at an arbitrary time. It's important to remember that conventional school was created by industrialists the way we know it. So the bell schedule is very intentional to train people to work in a factory situation. The bell's gonna ring, you're gonna do this job, you'll move to the next job. And that's why we don't have a bell schedule. And that's that's a learning curve for new people because they come in and they're like, well, when does, you know, when does crazy crime start? And it's on the schedule, it's 11 o'clock on Thursdays. And sometimes it takes a bit of time to realize um there's not gonna be a bell that's gonna ring and tell me what to do. And if you think about it, even as I said that, it sounded a little Pavlovian to be like, oh my, the bell just rang. Now I have to do my thing. Um, we do usually go around and tell people, like, all right, you know, this is gonna start. We're gonna be in the library, so you know where to meet us, but that's also on the schedule. We also have a Discord, so you can see it in our Discord. And then for some of the classes, people will go around and let you know. Some of the other ones, like I did a listening lab class and I was feeling a little tired of that class. And I said, All right, I agree to do it. If you all will come get me and tell me, because that means that you want to do it that day and you're excited about it, and this is a commitment that you're making, because nothing felt worse for me than doing this class and people weren't showing up, or maybe one person would come and they're like, Well, I don't know what I want to do today. And I said, Well, this is listening lab, so I'm not generating content for you. I'm going to, as a trained musician, you bring content to me. Oh, I found this new song or I wrote this, and then we can talk about it and analyze it together. So that was the agreement that I made. It sort of flipped it a little bit on a head. Now it's your responsibility to come tell me that this is something you want to do today. Um, so yeah, the length of time really is flow-based, you know, based on how people are feeling and what their what their own needs are. A lot of classes that were drop in that you can go one week, um, you can just use it as you need it. Then other ones aren't, like Spanish or French. It's pretty hard to drop in that. But certain ones do have a like a longer commitment to it, but other ones really are very flexible.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Okay. And you you guys are a private program, correct?

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Yes. We are not part of the public school system at all. We're actually a nonprofit. So we are private. And we are homeschool-based in Virginia. So in order to use our uh structure of student created learning, we use homeschooling as our legal mechanism to do that. And we support families with homeschooling as well to meet all the legal requirements for homeschooling in the state of Virginia. But do the students come five days a week? No, we only open Mondays through Thursdays. We don't take attendance, we don't have any requirements for time. So we open at nine, we close at 3:30. You can show up anytime during that time frame. You have to leave by 3:30, which sometimes can be difficult. Sometimes people want to stay. Um, and then we do have a part-time option, which is two days a week. And we say up to four days and up to two days because you don't have any kind of requirement to be at MBARC for a set amount of time. As the homeschool family, the family is the one that takes attendance and meets Virginia post work, but where there's support system. So we help people with that.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Right. And do you ever um is there a time where the adults might say something like, nobody's coming up with the idea of learning about math, and they really need to know math or writing or reading. And so you encourage that or you sneak it into the schedule.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

It's really important for us to have an authentic, non-judgmental, non-evaluative, if that's a word, relationship with each human being that comes to embark. So we are there, the staff is there to support you in what your goals are, and we don't have any preordained uh requirements for people. And what that means is we've had kids that have never done a lick of math. You know, I always feel bad. I feel like we we were so mean to math when I talk about it. Yeah, but people do math really naturally as part of their everyday life, just like we breathe, right? So occasionally we'll say this, like, oh, you know, we never want to be sneaky because it's tricky anybody, it's just observation. Like we don't really need it really advanced. She was like a terrible math, but she's an amazing baker, right? And so, you know, she was baking, and um, we said, Can you um can you make this recipe just one third? We don't have all the ingredients to make a full recipe. And she was like, sure, no problem. And she could do that. And then my colleague Andrea wrote down what that equation would look like and said, Oh, you know, this is what you just did, just on observation. God, you are good at math. You're just doing it mentally. Um, I love video games, I love playing video games with the kids, and watching the mental math that these kids do is crazy off the charts math. They have to move really fast, right? And so, if anything, we like to look at like all of life learning, everything we learn is valuable. And as adults, we have the freedom and respect in society to pursue our own interests, right? And if I were to apply for a job with a certain organization, and I can actually do this out of my own life as a really quick example. I'm a classically trained musician, right? And if I were to put together a resume to audition for the Philadelphia Orchestra, it would look one way. But if I were to put together a resume, say to apply for a job at a Democratic self-directed education center, it's going to look very different. So that's what we talk about with the kids too and families about what are your goals, what are your needs, what do you want to be doing with your life, and how does that look on a transcript, right? So, or a resume if you're applying for a job. So we definitely have young people that come to us at 16, 17, 18 years old, and they're like, you know what? I do want to go to college. And we'll say, okay, so what are your what are your requirements to get there? And one of those requirements may be math, right? And then we'll say, All right, so you have a goal. This means now you have intrinsic motivation to get to your goal. And that means in order to get there, you're gonna have to do some math for this particular degree, right? And what what do you need? How can I support you? And they'll do the math because they have a reason now to do the math. So we're not going to say arbitrarily like, I think you should be doing math because I think that's the, you know, there's a reason in the world, or I think there's a reason. It's more you saying, Oh, I want to do this thing, and math will get me there. Or I just really love math. And will somebody hang out and do math with me? Um, we've also had that as well, too.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

What would you say is um, I mean, I guess the buzzword these days in education is the graduate profile. Like, what do your graduates have as you launch them into the world?

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Oh, that's such a wonderful question, especially with this incredible revolution in human history with communication and information. I mean, I've been saying for 15 years the jobs in 15 years are going to be hard to predict. And I now I feel like the jobs in you know 15 months are gonna be hard to predict. So people that go to democratic schools or self-directed education centers like MBARC are leaving with critical thinking skills. And as I said, our program is run democratically. And to get into the nuts and bolts of that with our form of democracy, it's called sociocratic democracy, which means instead of majority rules, it's consent and objection. So if somebody has an objection that stops the decision-making process so that we can incorporate what their objections are. So think about that for a moment. Let's pause and think about the skills that children and teens are getting working in a community to run the community, right? We have to have a budget in order to be open. And somebody says, Well, I really think we should spend $1,000 on a new TV and video game system, right? I'm just making up a random number. And everybody's like, this is great. I love this idea. And you get one objection, which is, well, I'm concerned about that line item in the budget because what if we don't make meet our enrollment quotas? And that means one of our staff has to take a pay cut, or we don't have enough money for marketing. So these are conversations that people have. So they're learning collaboration, cooperation, community care, critical thinking, right? And so these are life skills. A lot of times I'll joke and I'll say being at Embark Center is learning how to have your first apartment, too, because we all live in this space together and everybody cleans together. And I mean, there was one year we had a pretty bad ant problem because the cleaning circle, that's our smaller decision-making circle, was like, well, people will just clean up on their own. We trust everybody. That did not work out great. Sounds great in theory. Does it does sound great in theory? And even part of that was, and if you see something, you'll help it, you'll clean up somebody else's mess for them because maybe they have executive functioning challenges and they forgot. But then people got really mad because they were always cleaning up after other people. And so these are things that that everybody had to learn how to work out. And as a person 50 years old, I have a lot of experience with things like that. So I try and stay out of the way and let them eat that as much as possible. But I am also there too. I live in this community. I have a say in how I want it to go. And so my voice is important too. But one of the things that we as staff try and do is just, you know, let their voices be in many ways more powerful than ours, even though we all are equal, um, because in the outer world, they don't have as much trust, right? Um, but we're all part of this decision-making process. So they're leaving with, and I hate saying this, so I'm doing air quotes, soft skills, right? Um, but these are very important skills in being a human being. You can get the academics, right? You can catch up on that stuff. But when you live in a community and you are practicing every day problem solving and once again, care for the community. A lot of times people come to us and they hear self-directed education and they think, oh, just me. But the just me doesn't happen without all of us. So that balance of, you know, what are my needs, but what are the needs of the whole is something that we're always navigating at MBAC. And another aspect of our program is we don't use punitive conflict resolution. We use restorative practices that are also consent based too. And so what that looks like is If harm happens, like if you caused harm, it's tell me more. Why would you choose this? What's the whole story behind this? Who did this impact? How do we heal from this? What do you need to do to repair the harm? What does the other person need? And so this is a conversation of how we work this out. And with the consent part of that, is being at MBARC is a choice. So choosing to come to MBARC means you choose to engage in these collaborative governance processes. If you want to, some kids never do fine with what people choose, right? But if you're in a conflict resolution um situation, that that is something where your expectation of responsibility is all right, I need to step up and come to this conversation. And it might be really uncomfortable, but there are people here to support me. My peers that have volunteered to support me, or staff that's here to support me. This is really hard, right? We've definitely had kids that are like, give me a detention. Just give me a detention. I just want to do my time and come back like nothing happened. Like pretend it went away because I did my time. And that's not how to be in a community. We've other had we've had other kids, and this is very rare. I think it's happened like three times in all the years, where they're like, you know what, I don't even want to come back. Like, I don't want to do this at Mmark. This is something that I'm very uncomfortable with. Um, it's easier just to go to school and be, you know, just just do my time, do what they tell me to do, and then I don't have to, you know, repair harm, which is which is difficult to do. So the graduate profile, we've got kids that um they're going out into the world. Um, one of the things we ask people when they are ready to move on or they've made a decision or they're going to go to college or get a job or whatever, we say, tell me more. What's your why? Right. So there's a lot of self-reflection too. So the people that are leaving us going to college, for example, know that they want to go, that not this is your next step of expectation for society necessarily. It's like, no, I really want to do this. I want to try this out. I know myself. The other thing that we get reports back from all night is they feel very comfortable talking to adults, which seems like such a simple thing as an adult, but I remember what it was like to be a child and how I was scared of my teachers, scared of my professors, because it's a system of oppression and obedience. And then our graduates have gone on to college and they have no problem giving up to the professor and being like, hey, you know what? I'm really struggling with this. Is there something you can do to help me? We even had, we even had some students that felt like um the professor could use a little feedback on how they spoke to women. And they were like, Yeah. So they felt like, huh, yeah, this person maybe can't see the language that they're using or the behavior they're using towards women. And uh, they made an appointment for his office hours just to check in on that. Like, can you tell us a little bit more? You know, which I never would have done in a million years, and that would have seemed terrifying. Um, but part of you know, our conflict resolution process and even in our decision-making process when we have objections of the tell me more approaching it with curiosity. So we've got these skills of you know, critical thinking, curiosity, um, community care, you know. When um we've had kids go through driver's ed, one of the things that driver's ed talks about is duty of care when you drive to take that duty of care to care for all the people driving around you. We we we say, you know, what is our care for our community? What's our duty here to each other? That's neat. What are the ages in your program? So our ages are 10 to 18, and that was community decision as well. We had um 13 to 18 and then kept drifting lower. And so the community meeting said, you know, we're willing to go down to six years old, and then we had one six-year-old, and then the next one was 12, and that didn't really work well. He was our six-year-old was pretty lonely. And so then the community meeting decided, all right, that didn't work. We have information now that we didn't have before. So we'll just go one year younger than the youngest person. So that's how we got to 10. Oh, neat.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

I you know, you mentioned that your graduates are comfortable with adults, but the other thing I found in the mixed age groups is they're also comfortable with people younger than them. And they take on, you know, back to your idea of community, like their responsibility as an older person to help mentor and guide. And and I, you know, some of the kids that you see in conventional schools, like it's it's not cool to hang out with anybody younger than you, or you can't relate to them, or they're they're, you know, it's true. And I think it's such a bizarre cruelty, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:31

I mean, it's delightful to be with younger people and to separate people. All right, this is all the six and seven-year-olds, and these are all the 13, 14-year-olds. And you're right with the oh, I don't want to hang out with somebody that's younger than me, right? And what we find is that that just goes away. And there is, I think there is a deeper level of care when you're 17 years old, and then you're you know, in space with a 10-year-old. And they do take that into consideration. Like some of the older kids will be talking about something, and then a 10-year-old will pop in and they're like, Oh, well, you know, we we're concerned that this, you know, conversation might be uncomfortable for this person. So let's pause it for now. And and the other side of that I get to see, which I love, is that the older ones will play, and that's not cool anymore, right? When you're a certain age and everybody's segregated into that age, oh, you play with Legos, you're a loser, right? Instead, so we've got people playing Minecraft or playing hide and seek, or you know, just running through the building sometimes. And I'll see it a lot in like early teenage boys when they're released from the expectation that they have to behave a certain way. It's delightful to see them running around. Sometimes it's really loud, but um, to get that playfulness back is is beautiful and healthy, and healthy. We all need that. We all need to be playing. And and um, I think about um the example, you know, the orcas and the when they're in captivity, the fin flops over. Yeah, and there's a show called the um, I think it's like the amazing attorney Wu. I don't know if you heard about it, it's on Netflix. It's a career, she's a Korean lawyer, but she's autistic in it, and it's from her, you know, what it's like to be an autistic person. And there's a whole episode about children that are in these really brutal, very strict schools. And that was the first time I heard that example of the orca with the with the fin that flops over when they're in captivity.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yeah. Um, going back to your restorative practices, and uh, and I've had the same experience with kids that are like, just just punish me. That's so much easier than me having to have personal accountability and that uncomfortableness. But do you do you find that there are kids that while that is not their comfort zone, they're willing to go there?

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Oh, yeah. So the kids that have been with us for a while are really good guides and teachers, especially if they've gone through through that restorative practice a lot. I have there's a couple kids off the top of my head that did it so many times that by the time they were in their, you know, mid-teenage years, that they were wonderful to have on a council because they have so much insight. Um, so yes, people will do it. Um, a lot of times they do it because they feel bad. Like they don't want to cause harm and they do want to have guidance on how to repair that harm. I would say that's the first reason I see people come to it. Um, sometimes I think they don't know how to deal with a conflict and they just want it to be over. So they're willing to come talk about it because they just want it to end, and that's the only way that we do it. And so they'll do it just sort of because they don't know anything else. Um, and some people love being at Embark. Most people at MBARK love being at Embark, um, that they want to fix it because they want to continue being a part of MBARK and they also care about the whole community, and they want to, they want to be a part of solving it so that it heals the community too. I I think people are really good. I think that's at the heart of who I am as a person. And so I think kids are really good people in our hearts. They want to, you know, be good people and kind people. So, you know, most of the conflict um uh situations I've mediated, the person that caused the harm is just they feel terrible about it and they really want to fix it.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, doing detention, so to speak, is not the same. And um it does bring closure. I think it does get easier, and it does really restore that, uh, you know, going to detention doesn't make it go away, and it it it still is there, and then I agree with you. I think people do care, and even if they might say on the surface, you know, oh well, I I did my time or whatever, they still know they wronged somebody. Yeah, and and I don't think we do feel good about wronging other people, yeah. And uh so that restorative practice gives them a chance to also help themselves.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

And I I want to make it clear, it is not comfortable, right? It takes a lot of bravery to do it, especially if you've never done anything like that. And uh, one of the things that we'll say is that I'll be with you. I'm gonna be right here, I'll sit with you. I know, I know we hear a lot of things like co-regulation and things like that, which we do, right? And um, but but we're there. And and we do talk them through what it looks like first, so they're not blind, also. And I'll say, okay, so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna ask you some questions. And we have about four or five questions, which are observations. So, what happened? You know, just the facts, ma'am, no evaluations or judgments. So, you know, he hit me with a rubber band as opposed to he was a horrible person, you know, like you just what you know, what it was, and then uh how did you feel? Like, how did that impact you? And these questions are on both sides, like, you know, what were you thinking about when you hit him with the rubber band? Right. And um, and I skipped over a part which is both kids share their observation and then they they they consent or object to if that was accurate. And pretty much most of the time it's the same. It's like, yeah, that's totally what happened. Yeah, right. It can be sometimes for some people it can be rough to get there. The other thing is, is it's best not to do the conflict resolution right away. Sometimes people need to calm down and take a breath or walk or calm down a little bit. Um, but then you know, when you get to the place where you can come together, talk when everybody feels ready. Observation, you know, how did you feel? What were you thinking? Be very careful when you ask, what were you thinking? You know, what were you thinking? Like, what was going through your mind at this moment? And then one of my favorite ones is um, who did this impact? Right? Because a lot of times they'll say me or the other person. And I'll say, Well, what was there anybody else there? And usually that's a big moment. And they're like, Oh, yeah, the the cooking instructor was there. I bet that impacted her, and oh, the other kids, and they'll usually say them by the name. We're a small group, so they'll say the kids' names, oh, I bet it impacted the people that were trying to listen to the cooking instructor. And then, um, and this is a real one, and then they said that's it. And I said, Well, what about me? You know, I'm here too, and it impacted me, you know, because I was doing something else. But and I'm happy to be with you. I'm grateful for these moments. These are what make us grow as people and have deeper connection with each other. But I'm part of this too. And then I'll say, you know, what are your needs? And, you know, the person that was harmed, what are your needs? The person caught some harm, what are your needs? And and also we ask throughout this whole thing, what did you hear the other person say? Do you hear them when they say this is how they felt? Do you hear them when they say this is what they need? And then, you know, what are your requests? What's the plan? You know, what's your proposal? How do we how do we repair the harm and move forward? And then they they come up with the plan together. Um, and um, it can be simple as please don't, you know, please don't shoot rubber bands at me anymore. Um, and that in that case, the but the other kid had a request was if I make a mistake or and I didn't even know I made a mistake, right? Because he was like, You were laughing when I was shooting the rubber bands at you. So I thought this was fun. Can you tell me in words, please stop? I'm not having fun. I feel scared or frustrated or angry because I didn't catch it. I didn't understand. Um, so they both had a request and they made an agreement to, you know, yeah, shoot rubber bands and communicate, like these are my needs very clearly, um, so that we can understand each other.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Yeah, exactly. The restorative practices isn't just about the the person who did harm. It it is also helping the other person um advocate for themselves, be self-aware. I mean, that what a great example of, oh, well, you were laughing when I did it. So, you know, I didn't know there was anything wrong with that. And that's a really good lesson for the victim to learn how to handle something like that in the future.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

Yeah, because he was laughing because he was so uncomfortable and he didn't know what to do.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

He explained that, but then he learned that that, you know, the other person didn't understand what was happening. So agreed. You you learn how to advocate for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah. Okay. Well, um, so anything big on the horizon for embark? Oh, what a great question. Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Well, we are in a historic building in downtown Leesburg, and um, we are renting it, and um, the people that um own it have offered to sell it to us. So that is our big thing, I think. And as you can imagine, that's a big uh community, a lot of community meetings about what this looks like. Um, and so instead of having it always be in the whole community meeting, we made a small governance circle, which is the building purchase circle. So they've been working on you know what that looks like and learning about the history of our building and um learning all these things of what it takes to inspect a building, you know, so that it's you know good enough for now, safe enough to try for purchasing a building and what that looks like for a nonprofit. So these are things that it's so interesting to me. In my whole life, I never thought I'd be learning about what nonprofit regulations are for real estate. And yet, and I'm working with like 12-year-olds with what that looks like. And it's so, it's so exciting because I think um, I think I came into alternative education and self-directed education as somebody that didn't really fit into the school system myself. I made it work, but I thought there was no other choice. So you just do it, right? And so somebody else made up these rules of, oh, you need to know math and you need to know reading and you need to know history and science and all this. And now I've got kids that are learning like this really incredible thing that you never would have thought of in a million years of, you know, real estate purchasing for a nonprofit organization. And so what I take away from that is who am I or any other person to say you have to know certain things? Because you will learn the things that you need to learn as they arise. And so I get to work in a community where all these really cool different things arise and kids learn them, and they still can learn all the other stuff that, you know, we're all air quotes supposed to know. Um, but it's because they need it and they want it. And so it just, you know, that really big thing that's coming up is this this really kind of beautiful thing that, you know, we've got a bunch of people that are part of, which I really love.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Oh, that's exciting. Well, Katina, it seems like you have definitely found your element in running this school and helping other kids find their element. And I wish you guys the best in in that next step for your program.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

Thank you so much. I am grateful every day.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

When adults shift from being the all-knowing answer machines to becoming true guides, something kind of magical happens. Youth start figuring things out for themselves, they learn how to speak up, clean up their messes, both literal and metaphorical. And they learn to navigate life's twists and turns without a GPS. So here's a little reflection to take with you. Think about a community you're part of. It could be your family, your school, your neighborhood, your fantasy football league, or that group chat from high school that somehow still exists. How can you contribute to the peace, the purpose, the vibe of that group? And if you're raising kids or working with students, ask yourself this how might you give them the space and the trust to step up, not just to follow along, but to lead, contribute, and grow. Because when we let go just a little, we make room for something much bigger. And we carve the way to our element. Thank you for listening to Element is Everything. If this episode resonated with you, please be sure to share it with someone else who could benefit and take a moment to leave a positive review on your podcast platform and share the episode on social media. If you visit the Element Is Everything website, you'll find additional resources on today's topic. Invite friends and family to join our community of listeners as we ponder science, perspectives, and strategies around personal accountability, courageous learning, and clear decision making for a sense of connection to ourselves, others, and life.