Positive Solutions with Jane Nelsen

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Imagine world peace where people with conflicting opinions focus on solutions rather than vengeance and blaming and being right. Treating each other with dignity and respect. Welcome back to Element is Everything, the podcast where we explore what it means to find your element, that place where interests and talents collide to help us feel great and do great. I'm your host, Terry Novacek, and today we have the privilege of time with Jane Nelson, author of more than twenty-five books and multiple resources on positive discipline. A program she developed back in the early eighties to support adults in guiding and modeling child behavior. The program has been so successful that it has extended to 108 countries and is also being used to help couples and to train leaders in the workplace. What Jane will point out is that all over the world, parents all want the same basic things for their children to lead a fulfilling life, being healthy, happy, and developing into kind, independent, and resilient adults. Adults also want those same things from other adults. But sometimes we act out. Positive discipline refers to that acting out as mistaken goals. I know we adults don't like to hear it, but we aren't a whole lot different than children because we are well, we're human. We too, we still have feelings, sensitivities, and personal motivations just like we did when we were kids. In this episode, we'll hear about Jane's humble beginnings with her first book and what, after forty-five years, remains top of mind for her in the philosophy. A little side note here, the family meeting as described in this podcast is a general outline of the process and lacks details provided in formal training. For more information and resources, you can visit positive discipline.org. You may also be interested in the element is everything episode titled Don't Misunderstand Me, recorded in April of 2021. Jane, you have just done so much through the decades. I don't even know where to begin with you. I don't know if there's anything that stands out for you as far as maybe kind of highlighting the work that you've done as far as the history and and how you've seen parenting trends change through the decades.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

The thing is, uh I was just really struggling as a parent because uh I I I wanted I didn't want to be punitive, but I didn't know what else to do. And so I finally decided to take a class on child development. And I was just so lucky to get a professor who said, we're not going to teach you a bunch of theories, but only one theory that will really help children learn self-discipline, responsibility, cooperation, problem solving. So I thought, well, that was that sounds good. And so I was really excited. And it was the work of Alfred Adler and Rudolph Dreikers. And um actually, my professor, professor, it was at Brigham Young University, and you all read, he had written a book called Mission for Mother, that uh it has now gone all over the world. You know, we have had some people train in over 80 countries through our uh not all of them in purpose, but but because it's just the bottom line is it's based on treating everyone with dignity and respect. Well what we have found is that uh parents in every every part of the world have the same challenges, and they really want uh and love their children and want to be able to help them grow up into citizens of the world or citizens who are helpful. And uh but I have to tell you, I was what I would call an obnoxious learner, which means I was always, well, yes, but well, what if I can almost tell that he tried to look the other way every time my hand went up. But also I found out that the the things they were talking about really did work in treating children with dignity and respect. And but I just kept asking, and then gosh, this was way back in 1975 or something like that. And so I was doing my dissertation on, I was a school counselor where we had two schools that were experimental schools and one that was a control school, and they all agreed every teacher would do class meetings because the thing I want to say right now, Terry, is I believe that if every family and every classroom was having class meetings and family meetings, that we would have peace in this world. Because we would be teaching kids the whole thing is that it's based on Gemeinschaft's fuel, which just means a social interest, a community feeling. And that's what is so um important uh for for kids and to focus on solutions. You know, this is what's so interesting to me is that when people think, well, if you're not gonna punish, what are you gonna do? You're gonna just let them get away with everything. And uh, but also if you're kind, isn't that spoiling? And the thing is, is to be both kind and firm at the same time. You know, I it it was always frustrating to me when people would tell us what not to do, but not tell us what to do. And so that was one of the main things I wanted to do in this book. And I had been teaching classes to parents. Uh, we had a California grant, and we were using a a book called uh Discipline Without Tears, and it went out of print. And by now I had so many success stories from both parents and teachers, just tons of them, that uh I thought, okay, I'm just gonna start writing a book. And I I sat down uh uh in two months and just whipped it out and I self-published. Oh. And uh somebody at the very end told me to put an order blank in the back of the book. And this was before the internet. This was, you know, back in the 1981, 1982. And then I hired a publicist who had me go to just a San Francisco, Sacramento, and I was going to Tucson. And uh from the article in uh the San Francisco Tribune or whatever it was, they started sending that article to the United Press or whatever. So we started, because we I figured out these uh guidelines that people could send for if they send a self-addressed envelope, and we started getting requests, self-addressed envelopes from all over the country. And we we weren't sure why. And then it was actually when I met Lynn Lott, and um she was gonna write a book, but then when she saw ours, she said, we don't need to do it, you've already done it. And then I talked her into writing, I I was having problems with one of my own teenagers, and I asked her to uh if she would help me write the book, uh, which she did, and then we started teaching classes. And the thing about our classes, Terry, is that they are very experiential. They're not just sitting there listening to lectures. There's a lot of role-playing where they role-play the child and they role-play practicing that that it helps children feel a sense of belonging and significance, that it's both kind and firm at the same time. That's quite a trick. And it's effective long term, uh, as far as the following two criteria, because it teaches children valuable social and life skills. We really do think the discipline that teaches rather than punishes, but that teaches. And it helps children discover how capable they are and to use their personal power. You know what's so interesting is that people were always wondering, well, what do I do in this case and what do I do in that case? And so what we have found is we we developed a um deck of cards, of 52 cards, of what parents could do. Because, for example, if if you thought of a of a challenge, and if if you just ask me what we would do for that certain challenge, and I'll show you how these cards work. And what is the challenge that a parent might have?

SPEAKER_00 9:10

I would say my child is not motivated to do his best work. I'm having a hard time getting him to do good work.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Okay, so then what we like to do is we go to our deck of cards, and I'm just gonna pick one. The one that came up is the tool called Natural Consequences. Children develop resiliency and capability by experiencing the natural consequences of their choices. So avoid lectures. Don't say, I told you so, show empathy. Um, you're soaking wet, you must be uncomfortable, or uh be comforting without rescuing a warm shower or validate fitting. Sounds like that's very embarrassing. So the whole idea here is to allow children to experience the consequences of their choices, not as, well, that's what you get, but hmm, I wonder what you'll learn from this. And allow them to learn sometimes. And like I will tell you that one of the big places where this worked is once when my daughter, who is today the co-author of one of the books, Positives and Parenting Tools, and a therapist, and she was failing at school, and literally. And I just said, you know, I have faith in you that you'll be able to figure this out. And because I didn't lecture her or anything, she got busy figuring it out. She took some summer classes and was able to make up her absences and and go on from there. But it's it's like teaching our children skills, it's like this is one of the criteria. Uh, it helps children feel a sense of belonging and significance, and that's the primary goal. And often we make mistakes about the best way to do that, to find belonging. But it's both kind and firm at the same time. You know, one of the best, easiest examples of that is I love you, and the answer is no. And it was so funny, that came from an argument I was having with my, you know, my youngest. Um, but and my kids loved it when they were younger, but when she became a teenager and she said, This is so tight. Do we have to do this? I said, Yes, we do. We can shorten them, but we have to keep doing them. And the very next week she went to stay overnight with a friend, and she came home and said, That family is so screwed up, they should be having family meetings. And and one of the things I love about that too, though, is that, like I said, I believe that if every classroom and every uh home was having regular family and class meetings, that we would have peace in the world because the focus is on solutions.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

And that's the key. And you know, when I when people just say, well, if you don't punish, what else is there? Letting them do whatever they want? And no, that's not the answer at all. The answer is you don't want to use punishment, you want to re don't want to use rewards, but you want to get children involved in what's the solution. Here's the problem, what's the solution? They're so good at it when we really uh teach them and allow that space.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Well, and it gives them that sense of control over their own life. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

And hearing other people's opinions too, though, because uh when they're coming up with uh a solution, first of all, they have to meet all those five criteria. You know, we would if if they're looking at uh they they come up with a list of solutions, and then we would say, okay, which ones of these do we need to eliminate because they don't meet these criteria of being kind and firm, helping feel long insignificance, of being effective. Uh oh, the the solutions also we think they have to be reason reasonable, related, respectful, and helpful. And so we might ask the kids, can anybody see something here that's not respectful? And we would delete their the solution that's not respectful.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Yeah. It is interesting. The the many times that I've seen this process, even some of the most challenging kids will just change because all of a sudden they they have a voice, um, and they are actually they're listening to other voices because somebody's listening to their voice.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Exactly, which gives them that basic feeling that Adler taught of everybody wants belonging and significance. And in that process, they're feeling belonging because they're part of the process, and they're significant because they have a voice.

unknown 13:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

But they're also so quick to learn. It's like one of my favorite classroom examples was this kid that was late from coming in from the recess bell. And so when they started coming up with solutions, they were things like make him stay after class, make him write sentences, uh all of that. And I but with and this, I think it was a third grade class. And I just said, hey, time out, time out. What if you focused on solutions that would help him not be late in the future? Well, they got it right away. They said, Oh, well, he could play closer to the bell, he could have a bunch of friends saying, shouting, bell. But they were all things that were helpful. And, you know, I've heard uh from teachers who say during the class meeting process, uh children with another language learn the language faster, and all the kids were willing to help them too. Uh, it just feels creates that feeling of uh community and cooperation and wanting to help each other. I think the kids really want to be helpful and respectful. They just need to be taught the skills. And that's why we say that, you know, one of the things that in positive discipline is we're teaching kids not only to help them feel belonging and significance, but them to learn a process of helping in an environment they're in to focus on solutions.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yes. And let it trickle out to others, those skills. Um, you talk, in fact, I think one of the titles of your book, didn't you write something about um how we love our children too much? Was it an article or a book?

SPEAKER_02 15:15

No, there was an old book called Parents Who Love Too Much. And it was it it was it was a poor title because essentially it was saying the same thing that what's his name, who wrote the um she is Jonathan Haidt. Oh, yes. You know, he wrote a book called The Coddled Coddling of American Children. Oh, that's right. Yes, that's right. That's how our book was. We wrote it. We wrote uh the parents who loved too much because people who are drawn to positive discipline because they want the respect, they want the the dignity, they don't want to use punishment, they don't like it. They do it because they don't know what else there is, and they've been taught, you know, you can't let them get away with that. So they lean to be a little bit more permissive, and they're they they have a wrong idea of how to chill make children feel connection, belonging, and significance. And that they don't feel that by pampering, which we do in the name of love, but we don't, it but it hurts. And so that's what that book was, the whole book about it. You know what, we have um written uh just an e-book called Help, My Child is Addicted to Screens. Yikes, so am I. And the reason I wrote that is because way before the internet, I was playing hearts on my uh computer, and it was midnight, and I would play, and then my head would drop down on my chest. I could hardly stay awake, but I kept playing, and I thought, why am I doing this? I don't even like it. But I thought, I'm addicted. So the next day I wiped it off of my computer, and Jonathan Hayde came out with a book that had the statistics. And so now everybody is uh, you know, trying their best to try and undo that. And the thing is, um, to give up punishment, uh it it's like learning to do the uh the firm part as well. I love you, and the answer is no. And I I can see that's really upsetting to you, and I'm I'm sure that you'll figure it out. If you need my help, let me know. That that being kind is so important as well as being firm.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

What is your opinion on providing the reason why? Very common, you know, a parent tells a child to do something and or won't let them do something, and it's always why, why, why? As a parent, should I provide that explanation?

SPEAKER_02 17:44

No, but you know what I would do as a parent, I would say, that's a good question. Why don't you put that on the family meeting agenda and we'll discuss it? We'll we'll talk about it all together.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Oh, yeah, very good.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

It's just like in the classroom, I usually just used to always encourage the kids, oh, that's a good one for the class meeting agenda. Go put it and they go over and write it on. Uh I I remember that we had one special ed teacher who said that uh his kids were always so upset after playground because they get into trouble. He says, but when he would see them coming in, and they would go over and they would write their problem down on the agenda, and then they would walk away with this feature of relief because they knew uh uh we we usually like for it to not come up for a d a few days. That's why we like to take things in order, but they still know that they will get some help where people will discuss solutions and that they can fix the solution that will work for them.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Sometimes those solutions come before the meeting as well, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Oh, favorite story. I've got so many favorite stories. This one teacher, eighth grade teacher, and um, she only had 40 minutes of uh class time with her kids, so she would have it the last 10 minutes would be for a class meeting. And so sometimes they couldn't get through, they would just do it all they could in 10 minutes. And one of the problems she put on the agenda was toothpick chewing, because the kids were this habit of chewing toothpicks, and there were broken toothpicks all over the grounds, and it just was obnoxious. And so the first day and the first 10 minutes they didn't come to a solution, and the second day they still hadn't supposedly come to the solution. Finally, the third day she said, Well, we still haven't solved the problem of toothpick chewing. And one of the kids said, Have you seen anyone chewing chewing toothpicks lately? And she said, Oh, come to think of it, I haven't. And they said, Well, then maybe the problem is solved. Yes. Just because they were willing to talk about it respectfully.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah, probably that well, not probably, the more that it gets done in the group and they build those skills in the group, the more they're able to just use those skills on the fly in their in their daily lives, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Exactly. And that's the point. That is the whole point. And you know, this is why, Terry, at the very beginning of our workshops, and one of the things that's different about our workshops, at least before COVID, was that we did them in ways that people could learn new skills and practice these new skills in pr by role-playing. They would role play the child as well. But one of the things that we would start every workshop with is a list of challenges. Okay, let's list all the challenges that you typically might have with children, and then let's make a list of the characteristics and life skills we want. And then that becomes our foundation. So we can always go uh when when they come up with a solution and say, does it meet the five criteria? But every country, every country, it's just amazing. They come up with the same list. And so what we've learned is that uh even though we have very different cultures, different beliefs, it's like our children in their growing-up process all seem to give us the same challenges. And they can relate to those, but then when they're learning tools to deal with them that are using kindness and firmness, they get to practice in their own language and in their own role-playing experience. And so that's what makes it very real. And it has been so surprising how we can have such different cultures but still have the exact same lists of what we want for our children and the challenges that we have.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah. And I know another part of that activity is when you then have to reflect on how you handle a different situation. In the parent workshops I've done, this is my favorite one because we say we want our kids to be independent, but then we tend to do a lot of things for them that they're able to do on their own. You know, so sometimes even though we want our child to be a certain way, we're not empowering them or really guiding them in that path. And that's my criticism of our school system. We have a lot of school systems that will totally control and highly structure all a student's learning, and then they leave high school and we say, okay, go be free and think for yourself and know how to learn, even though we've tried to over-control it for the last 13 years.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Exactly. And you know, this is one of the things that I do love about the class meetings so much, is because the kids are learning and when they solve any one person's problems, they're also learning skills. And what we do is when they when we come up with a solution, and then we do the role-playing. You know, when we do the teachers helping teachers problem solving steps, or the parents helping parents problem solving steps. And this is this whole process where they will present a problem, and the whole group group will try to come up with solutions and they choose one, but then they role-play it, where they play the child. And, you know, we say after they experience the results of whatever the tool is that they've chosen, then we ask the child or the person who roles playing the child, we go back to the two lists and we say, okay, have you learned? Uh are you thinking and feeling and deciding to learn any things from these two lists that we want for you? Or are you uh feeling uh the challenges? Are you feeling defiant or uh impatient or talking back? You know, they get to choose as the child who experienced this tool, which are you learning from? Which list? The challenges or the characteristics and lifestyles? And that's how we learn. They learn it in their own bodies, in their own role-playing as a child. What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What am I deciding to do? And that's where you go back to the two lists. So you're deciding, are you learning something on the characteristics and life skills? Or are you feeling more like in the challenges that you want to get even in some way?

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Right. The first time I heard this was from you many years ago, the idea that we do good when we feel good. And it's so simple, so basic. And I think of it probably every day in one way or another. And so I've appreciated hearing that from you those many years ago. But how does that tie to children? Um, when we're talking about parents that are maybe loving their children too much, where do we do that because we think we're making them feel good? If I can give you a lot of compliments, if I can make life easy for you, aren't I making you feel good? What's your response to that?

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Well, this is where we like them to learn for themselves. Okay, you be the child, and and in the role play, the the first role play, the what happened, and then how is the child thinking and what are they feeling, and what are they deciding when they are pampered or when they get away with it? And so they learn from their own experience. Um, that's why we take them back to the two lists and say, are you learning anything on this list when you experience this discipline? Too many people think it's punishment, it just means punishment. Uh but discipline does not mean uh just punishment, but we really want children to learn self-discipline. But you know, this is where I think we've got to bring up this whole thing. And it's my people ask me, what's my favorite tool? My favorite tool is that mistakes are opportunities to learn. And so even when our kids make a mistake, just say, that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

What'd you learn from that? Yeah. And then what do you think is the best way for a parent to handle a mistake? Well, that same way.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah, just say, let's put this on the family meeting agenda. Uh, or you know, you could also say, Would you like to talk about that? You know, everything doesn't have to be the family meetings, but I sure do. One of the things that's really cool when kids put something either on the class meeting agenda or the family meeting agenda, it's in a place where everybody can see it. And quite often, just because they see the problem there, they work on solving the problem. Because, and they also know, though, that it's never about punishment. Your name isn't up there because you're gonna get punished. Your name is there actually, usually because you put it there. But quite often I would suggest to my kids, oh, that sounds like a good thing for the family meeting. And then they see it there, they're able to think about it, they know that they're gonna focus on solutions, and so quite often they come prepared or the problem isn't a problem anymore. See, I think that this is one of the reasons that positive discipline has been as successful as it has, is because it's so supportive. You know, like at first, parents or teachers may not want to be the volunteer, you know, because we have teachers helping teachers problem-solving steps as well, uh, where they can really role-play, be in the child's shoes. When they come back though and tell us, did you do what you learned during the teachers helping teachers or during the parents helping are? Quite often they say, No, I did something else, but they learn still from that process. It just seems magical how often they find something that would work even better, just because even though if it might not have worked in the role play.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yeah. What what are the key parts of a family meeting?

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Well, you start with compliments. And that that's true in um class meetings or family meetings. You always start with compliments, and then uh when you brainstorm solutions, you write all the solutions, and then you go back and say, okay, do we have to delete any of these because they don't meet any of the five criteria? And so they're really starting to learn that it has to be uh kind and firm at the same time. It helps them feel belonging, uh, teaches them valuable social and life skills, and helps them discover how capable they are and to use their personal power power. So that is one of the whole uh goals of is really teaching children skills, including the mistakes or opportunities to learn. You're not gonna be blamed or shamed for the mistakes and say, use that as an opportunity to learn.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

So if you're in a family that has four children and there are two adults, and the four children decide on one solution that the two adults don't necessarily care for, how do you handle that?

SPEAKER_02 29:00

You keep trying, you keep saying, no, we got to go back to the drawing board and keep coming up with ideas that work for all of us. Do you know that there was one year about the issue of getting a dog was on our agenda for six months as we talked about all the challenges and the prop problems before we uh finally got a dog. Uh but so they don't have to have immediate answers, but it's the idea that you can discuss it and they know we have to find something that works for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

So you just keep working on it. Yeah. Um, you talk a lot about mutual respect. And a lot of times they think that means I respect you and you respect me, but you actually have a bigger explanation or description of mutual respect. In that, you're also about respecting yourself. So I respect you and I respect myself. And that is what helps with the kind and firm. I also need to be kind and firm with myself. So then when we go to the topic of working with kids to help them feel good, which is not necessarily just be happy, but to feel good about themselves, mutual respect comes into that.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Well, yeah, and and I think that that's really important that uh you don't do things that just make you feel good if somebody else doesn't feel good. It's like this is why, uh, you ready for this one? Gemeinschafskule is so important. That's the word that Adler coined in German that really means um the concern for yourself and others, the social feeling. And this is why you sometimes have to leave an item on the agenda until everyone feels respected. And and why it has to, you know, when you have the five criteria, you know, I see here it says it helps children feel a sense of belonging and significance. And I'm just realizing it should say it helps everyone feel a sense of belonging and significance. I just saw a change I'd like to make. Because it's both kind and firm at the same time, and you know, kind is not wishy-washy. It doesn't, you know, sometimes the kindest thing you can do is say no. The kindest thing you can do is let a child experience the consequences of their choices and with empathy instead of adding blame and shame. Uh, and and also will it be effective long term? And then I'm looking at, and it teaches valuable social and life skills. That's one of the things that that's a criteria is the discipline and help them discover how capable they are. And you know, the thing is, I just think that the mistakes as opportunities to learn is such an important one to be able to say, oh, well, I made a mistake. Good, I wonder what I can learn from that, so that we take away the stigma of mistakes and that mistakes are really valuable for our learning. And that sometimes um, you know, they might try something that doesn't work and say, this doesn't work. Let's try again. Let's do brain some more brainstorming, see if we can find something that works better.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Mistakes definitely open doors, and they also help us learn a lot about ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Exactly. And but this is the other reason why, you know, my own uh you would think that I would know all this, but we all have emotions. We all get uh hooked at times. And so teaching kids that mistakes, you don't have to be condemned and don't contemn yourself, just really when you feel better, what can I learn from it? And how can I correct a mistake I've made? Like for instance, it was really hard for Mary. Oh, dear poor Mary, she's who uh when she was with a bunch of kids that edged some cars. And I just said, you know, if somebody did that to your car, what would you want them to do? I'd want them to clean it up, but there you go.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

So there's a solution.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

And she felt, you know, just humiliated, but that's where I would just kindly and firmly say, Yeah, you need to go fix that mistake by apologizing and cleaning their car, and she did. No, I didn't tell her to. I said, What do you need to do? What would you want somebody to do if it was your car?

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Something, you know, our schools uh follow positive discipline, and we have seen it really empower our teachers and our parents in guiding students towards what we refer to as finding your element because they get to make those mistakes, they have those conversations. In all that you've seen in your decades of this, how do you feel this model supports not just children, but parents too, or anybody in finding their element, finding that place where they are doing well by themselves as well as others?

SPEAKER_02 34:17

First of all, I think that we have to admit that it may not work for everybody. But it for those who it does work for uh, especially when they get that part that mistakes are opportunities to learn, it does not mean you have to be perfect. It does not mean that you that you may actually even be comfortable uh with mistakes. And gee, I made a mistake. What do I gonna learn from this one? Uh without having the the shame and the blame. And so I think that that's just a very important part of this model is to know that it's not about perfection. And I especially think for parents and teachers, like we have emotions, we get our feelings hurt, we get frustrated, and then we can calm down and say, whoops, yeah, I didn't handle that the best. It's like not about perfection. It's just not about perfection, but it's always about improvement that's based on dignity and respect. I would think that's one of the main things. But but also you're you're a uh a Montessori school, right? One of our schools is, yes. And the thing is, is that Montessori and Adler uh and Drykurs, mostly Dryker and Montessori were at the same time, they just both had the basic feelings of dignity and respect for for children. And Montessori uh focused on the uh curriculum and the environment. And Adler and Dreikers went into the behavior and the reasons for the when there was a belonging of significant or lacking, and what to do about that to create this atmosphere. You know, I've had a lot of teachers say that even during the class meetings, it's one of the best ways for their children who are English is not their first language. They get so involved and the other kids are so willing to help that that it really is a great ESL program.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So, what aspects of positive discipline do you feel help children find their passion and and help them be their best selves? I know you have a lot of tools and activities. What stands out for you?

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Well, I think that every tool that has that as a goal and to help children learn, first of all, that they belong. And they belong in a way that's not dependent on pampering or getting away with or punishing, but it's uh in this way of they are capable of focusing on solutions, whether it's from them or from somebody else. So they start, they to me, when they feel that belonging and they feel significant, the belonging is just something to give everybody because they're part of it and they're included. But the significance, they're learning skills, they're learning to focus on solutions. And I don't expect them to really learn what their element is. There aren't very many who do that in in elementary school or even maybe in in high school, but it gives them those basic foundational pieces. I think all of the tools, because all of the tools are based on focusing on solutions that uh are where everybody feels dignity and respect. And so when you've got that as a foundation, what difference does it make what you decide to do? I think it's bringing those qualities of uh respect and focusing on solutions fits in any element that they decide on.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Very well said. Jane, thank you very much for uh making time and allowing me to hear a little bit about the history and your experience through the years.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Well, you know, one of the other things that I would just like to mention is it's so amazing to me the genius of Adler and Dryker's and to come up with this way of teaching. But what's so interesting to me is how many other phases of life, like we had one parent educator who she decided to use these tools in her marriage. And she said, she said, after they had done them for the whole year, they said they felt like they were on a honeymoon again. So, and then somebody else said, Oh, this would work with my managers, and so we came up with empowering people in the workplace. Uh you know, it's just like people, so there's marriage, the workplace, that it just it really fits in all walks of life.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Absolutely. Humans are humans.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

So no matter what they're I like that word element, no matter what it is, if they have these characteristics and life skills that they bring to that endeavor, then I just think that they will be uh happier themselves and a service in the in the planet.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Oh man, that was fun. Even after her many decades of work, you can still hear her enthusiasm. In the interview, we talked about the two lists activity. This is an activity done at the beginning of a workshop in which you make two lists, as you probably already figured out. The first is a list of the challenges you are experiencing from your child. You could also think of challenges with your spouse or workplace member. The second list being future characteristics and life skills you'd like to see in said child, significant other or colleague. This activity oftentimes reveals how our behaviors or methods in dealing with other people can sometimes be counterproductive to our preferred characteristics. I use the example of the child growing into an independent adult, and there are many other characteristics that tend to show up on the list, like wanting a child to be an effective communicator, but yet the parent or someone else ends up doing most of the talking. Or hoping a child will be a critical thinker, but not providing enough challenge to really stretch their thinking. But let's turn to adults, friends, significant others, colleagues. Think of someone you're having challenges with and list those challenges. Then list the characteristics or skills you hoped she or he could show more of. Hopefully, it goes without saying that you need to be realistic. I mean, come on, the magic of positive discipline does have its limits. It's not going to make artists into doctors and doctors into mechanics or mechanics into therapists. But for example, say you have an adult in your life that won't listen. And what you want is someone with whom you feel a connection with, someone on the same page, someone who well listens. What do we usually think, feel, and do in that situation? Oh, my spouse never listens and doesn't care. I just shut down. My friend never listens and is always making bad choices. I just have to say, I told you so. My colleague never listens and keeps making the same mistake. Well, time for some serious punishment. The key here is to remember that others will listen to us after they feel listened to. How much time do you spend telling versus asking? I tell you, oops, unintended pun there. Without fail, when I'm having a challenge with someone, whether it be my adult children, a student in one of our schools, my spouse or a colleague, I can usually trace it back to me doing a lot of telling rather than asking and listening. So the next time you're feeling tempted to say, clean up your room, get a job, do your schoolwork, help with the dishes, or finish the paperwork, consider having a conversation that comes from a place of curiosity and instead ask what is your responsibility now that you've completed that? What ideas do you have for the type of work you'd like to do? Do you have a plan for completing that paperwork? Are there any challenges you need help working through? It seems like our agreement on dishes isn't working. Can we discuss a new plan? And speaking of a new plan, here is your challenge. Schedule a class, a work or a family meeting. Not the type where you're discussing your day or the next task you're going to work on, but one where you're addressing an area of concern. Everyone in the group needs to have access to a shared agenda, whether it be digital, a whiteboard or a notepad, but something so that everybody can see and add topics. When you meet, make sure that disturbances like phones, deliveries, and all that kind of stuff are not permitted, and that everyone participating comes with a mindset of finding solutions rather than looking to blame or defend or ignore. Begin with compliments to set the stage with a reminder that, hey, all of us in this group, we're all good people here. And then that will also help you be ready to tackle that challenge. Then brainstorm some possible solutions. There's no wrong answers for this part. Just list anything and everything that comes to mind. But then compare each of those solutions or possible solutions to the five criteria, which are making sure that it's kind and firm at the same time, both respectful and encouraging. Making sure that the members feel a sense of belonging and significance, that there's a connection to it. Being sure that it's effective in the long term, remembering that our punishment works short term, but has negative long-term results. Make sure that it involves social and life skill building for good character. Are we learning to respect, show concern for others, problem solve, uh contribute, cooperate? And lastly, that it invites others to feel capable and to use their personal power in constructive ways. So keep at it until everyone agrees, or at least agrees, to give it a try for one week. This reminds me of what Katina Franklin of the Embark Center for Self-Directed Education shared with us in our episode on power with, not power over. It was an episode on sociocracy back in uh July of 2025. Getting everyone to agree is not always easy, but it can be done. And as Jane says, if we could all learn these skills, we might have a shot at world peace. And while world peace might feel like a big leap, real change always starts small. It starts with you, with your family, and with the conversations happening around your kitchen table, in your classrooms, in your workplace. As you slow down, listen more deeply and look for positive solutions, you'll discover something important. You'll be learning about yourself. And that self-awareness will bring you one step closer to finding your element. If you visit the Element is Everything website, you'll find additional resources on today's topic. Invite friends and family to join our community of listeners as we ponder science, perspectives, and strategies around personal accountability, courageous learning, and clear decision making for a sense of connection to ourselves, others, and life.