Doing Less So Others Thrive with Dr Michaeleen Doucleff Part 1

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Imagine a generation of children who grow into adults who are better than we are, more helpful, kind, generous, and confident, and capable. Slowly, a world of strife becomes more cooperative, less stressful, and abounding with mutual respect. Welcome back to Element is Everything, a podcast where we explore what it means to find your element, that unique space where your interests and talents come together to help you feel great and do great. I'm Terry Novicek, and today I have the privilege of spending time with Dr. Michaeline Dukleff. She's an award-winning science journalist, NPR correspondent, and the author of two groundbreaking books that challenge many of the assumptions we make about parenting in the modern world. The conversation was so rich with insight that I've divided our one-hour chat into two episodes. Michaelin's research and experiences offer a powerful opportunity to rethink not only how we raise our children, but also how we build relationships and contribute to our communities and how we discover our own sense of purpose and belonging. Throughout the conversation, you'll hear Michaelin refer to weird societies. That's an acronym for Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic cultures. As part of her research, she traveled with her three-year-old daughter to spend time with families in indigenous and traditional communities. She was in the Yucatan Peninsula, the Arctic Circle, and Tanzania, where she observed parenting practices that have helped communities that are not weird raise cooperative, capable, and connected children for generations. She also makes reference to alloe parenting. She spends some time in her book sharing the evolution of the human infant, pulling from the research of several anthropologists, and pointing out that human babies are born premature compared to other primate species. So much so that a human baby would have to grow in the womb for another nine to twelve months to be neurologically and cognitively equivalent to a newborn chimp. Ouch. So this puts a lot on the parents, which is where alloparenting comes into play. An alloparent is any person who helps the parents take care of the child, not the casual caregivers who come and go, but the people who provide long-term unconditional love as the child grows. A mini alloparent is the older child who provides care for the younger child. From the work of anthropologist Abigail Page, it has been shown that children who are about five years older than another child can be the best teachers. They have that advantage of more energy, and they have a skill level more closely aligned with that of a younger child, so they can naturally integrate play and pretend into teaching, which makes it, of course, more fun. The multi-age playgroups not only give parents a break, but help children build those social emotional skills that they need to function in a society. In this first episode, Michaeline invites us to consider what modern families might learn from cultures that approach child rearing in profoundly different ways. Let's jump in. Thank you so much for making some time. I think I already told you we um we used Hunt Gather Parent was our book club for our organization. And and then since then you've written another one. And I thought, oh, well, maybe that's next year's book club.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

That's amazing. Thank you. I'm happy to do this. I'm thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Sure. I um so you're a science journalist. Yes. And tell me a little bit about like what what drew you to that, and then what drew you to explore parenting and childhood across the different cultures.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yes. So I am trained actually as a chemist. I spent 10 years, I have a PhD in chemistry, and I spent 10 years as a biochemist, physical chemist. And after my postdoc, I was like, I don't know if I want to go teach, you know. I was like, I don't know if I want to be a professor. Um, and I've started applying, but at the same time, I was like, you know what? I really want to write. And so I started writing and kind of doing some journalism. And then I made this like really bold move to go into science journalism about 16 years ago. Um, and eventually it landed at NPR and I covered uh infectious diseases for a long time, global health, like around the world. Um, but then I as I was like traveling around and going to different places, um, I started noticing the parenting really early. I was like, whoa, people do it really differently. Like we do it really differently than a lot of places. And then when I became a mom, I really started noticing and realizing, like, whoa, like in a lot of places, parents aren't stressed like the way we are here. And of course, all parts have their own problems. I'm not saying it's perfect anywhere, but they a lot of cultures don't struggle with the same things that we struggle with, right? Like they like I realize, like, oh wow, they raise really helpful kids easily, and kids that aren't so stressed, and the parents aren't so stressed. And so while I was struggling as a mom and I had a toddler, I started to wonder like, maybe I can we can learn something from other cultures, you know, maybe that can take the stress out of our lives and make it easier to raise kids that, you know, want to be helpful, want to be kind, want to be generous. And that's kind of what led me to uh write Hunk out of their parent. And for that book, I traveled with Rosie when my my daughter when she was three, as you you know, to the Arctic, to the Yucatan Peninsula, and to a part of Tanzania. And we we learned from parents there, like techniques and strategies and um really are helpful for people, I think, in America. And that book has been out for five years now, and like I get emails every almost every day. So with people like this really helped me, and so um that's been really a wonderful, a wonderful thing. So good.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

And am I doing the math right? Rosie is 11 now.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

She'll be 11 in November. So yeah, she's 10 and she's 10 and a half. Yes, exactly. She she's a tween.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

So is there anything since you wrote that book, and now that your daughter's getting older? Yeah, any things that you feel like, oh, I probably should have said that, or this would have been a better way to describe it.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Yeah, that's a good question. You know, as she's gotten older, I've become just more and more confident in the book because she's like an amazing human being. Like I said to my husband a couple days ago, like, Rosie's like a much better person than we are. Like she's just really awesome. And I mean, I take a little bit of credit from it in the book, and the, but you know, she's also just a really good person. But um, you know, I think there's a couple things in the book that I wish I like said in a more like a simpler way, you know, as time has gone on. Like for me, as time goes on, I always simplify my thinking. Um, and so I did kind of put those things in dopamine kids. The new book has like simpler versions, and in um, like the whole thing with autonomy, like autonomy is such an important part for parents, it's such a huge gift you give to kids. Um, but it can be tricky to execute, I've learned. And like I think in America we kind of forgotten how to do it. And so in the new book, I talk about it as adventure, and I think that's an easier way of talking about it. Like what kids need is adventure. And the reason they're on screens is they're seeking adventure, like ri a little risk, a little excitement, exploration. Um, and that at the end of the day is autonomy. But um, but I think it's much easier to implement if we think about it as adventure. And you know, for our kids, adventure can mean just like using a knife, you know, or using the oven, you know, like using a tool, a sharp, a powerful tool, you know. It does not, and it does not need to be big things. It for a toddler, it can be like going outside to the car by yourself and getting something from the car, you know, or going to the backyard and getting something or the porch, you know. It can be very, very simple things for a kid, but I think this is this is one thing I wish um I had written a little bit differently. But the new version isn't of mean kids.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

So okay. Oh, good. Um, okay. Well, I know that I need to make sure that I uh so since you could not be at our book club, I did reach out and let people know that we would be talking and gave them an opportunity. So if it's okay with you, I'd like to share their thoughts and their questions. Sure, sure. Okay. So Mother Melinda says, your book has literally reinvigorated my motherhood and brought joy back into my life and that of my kids. Thank you so much for your work, both out in the world and inside your home. I would love to know your thoughts on applying some of the HGP principles to multiple children close in age. I have three, all about the same age, eight, seven, and five. Okay. And I struggle with the togetherness element. If I let one kid cook with me, the others are very upset. If I let all three cook with me, things truly fall apart. I want I want to bring them all into my work, but how to do so equitably is a challenge. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

So I actually I had a chapter on siblings that got cut from from Hunkather Parent. And I maybe one day I will I'll write it. Um it's a very good question. And and it's it's not an easy, I mean, you could write a whole Hunkather parent sibling version, right? Like um, but I think one of the ways to think about it is um, well, first of all, that those age groups are difficult, right? The closer they are in age, it I think it it is is it tend kids tend to be more competitive, right? And and we live in a society that's that is is pretty competitive. And so that m what's her name, Melinda. And so is Melinda, it's not your fault. Like this, this is you got a tough situation no matter where you live, you know, um, is what I'm trying to say. But I think the idea and what I've learned, so I reported on this question while while we were traveling. I would ask it about this and I studied it and everything. And kind of what the strategy is is to teach the older kid to treat the younger ones the way you're treating the older one, right? And so you what what you want to kind of do is get that older one to be the little a little bit of a parent to the younger one, and that eight and seven-year-old are gonna be tough. You might have to like get them to be to work together a little bit. Um, but but the idea is that the the parents kind of trend get the that older kid to then treat the younger ones as they're treating the older ones, right? And so all the techniques you're using, you are teaching the older kids to to use on the little ones. You're tapping into their desire to be a leader and to be in charge a little bit, right? Kids want to be, especially, well, I think all kids, I think all kids want to be in charge a little bit and have some power, and we all do. And and so you're you're tapping into that to get them to be kind and helpful and generous with the younger ones. So if if she could take the eight-year-old, I'm assuming the eight-year-old's probably like a year and a half older than the seven-year-old, but she could take the eight-year-old and and start to say, you know, I really need help. You know, I you you know, when we try to cook together, it kind of falls apart. And, you know, it's you know, of course, I want to all cook together. You know, I want us to work as a team. And so, can you help me? And you can even ask her, like, do you have some ideas? Like, you know, I noticed that when we're cooking, so and so gets mad and throws stuff or whatever happens. Like, can you do any suggestions on what I can do? Right. And so you're getting her to be your partner, basically. Um, and and hopefully that could take away some of the competitiveness, especially with the little one. Um, but also it will start to hopefully get that that older one on your side more and on your team more and start to see her role. Like you have a really important role to do, right? You're the big sibling. And I want I want you to be able to fill that role. Like, how what can you do? Or just try to get get that to come from her, you know. And then if she doesn't have she or he doesn't have any ideas, I think then you can start making some suggestions, like, oh, can you show the five-year-old, whatever that one's name is, can you show her how to cook this dish tonight? Right? And so you get two of them away working a little bit on the side, and then maybe you can work with the seven-year-old, or can you can you help the your little sister do this or do that? And so, and so now instead of your deal, you're parenting all three, you you are parenting kind of two two groups in instead. So it's kind of I think that to me, when I look around the world and I I see how other families do it, they really do teach the older kids to be that aloe parent, you know, and to and to really want to help and give and be generous, generous because it's come from the standpoint of like I'm the big kid, I'm in charge, right? Yeah, and of course it can that can go overboard, I've learned, and you can get kids that are really in charge and really but yes, exactly. And you because again, the the parent, the kid is gonna mimic the parent, really, right? In the way or mimic some sort of adult figure, right? The way um, and so if the Melinda is is really treating the kids as these cooperative, capable humans that we're working together with, the the older sibling will learn that. But if she's treating them more like a boss, bossy, then the older sibling will learn that too, right? So you can actually see your parenting through your kids if you pay attention.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

And you know, I love how you use the word team, and and I think there was a part in your book where you even use the baseball analogy and just that idea that we all have a common goal, you know, and instead of that goal of I want to be more important or I want to do my favorite thing, but if your common goal is to have an edible meal that doesn't have too big of a mess, because then we're all gonna have to clean it up later, you know, those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yes, yes. And I mean it's like, and and one of the things that I think we can keep in mind is like you can have a big common goal, and then everyone can play a part, right? And have their own thing. Like we can do both at the same time, right? It's like um kid kids, kids want to have their own thing, you know, but I think it's and in the umbrella of like we're all making a meal together, right? And yeah, um, I I hear from a lot of parents where the kids really want to help, and the parents don't realize like the kid can do way more than they think they can, right? Like, especially as they get older, like into the seven, eight, nine age group. Like they've been doing hunt gather parent a long time, and he says, like, oh, then the kid stops wanting to help. And I'm like, well, maybe he just wants more like responsibility, you know. Like I did with Rosie, I have to remind myself, she she's grown her skills, and so it's like it's not just like, oh, help me make this dish. It's like she wants to make her own, she wants to make the whole thing, you know, and like, and so it I think we can do things as shared goals, and then we can also like, okay, well, you can work on this, you know. I think another big thing that I see I heard from parents around the world is like telling kids things like, well, we all have our own strengths. One of the moms said we each child, we all look to one of them for inspiration or guidance on different things. And I remember that my one of the my moms has told me she was like, Yeah, you know, Claudia is only six years old, but we look to her to show us how to get our work done before we play because she's really good at like coming home and getting our homework done. And then before, and so she shows us that, you know, and I really I love this idea of like focusing not on like you versus you, but like what is your strength and what is your strength and how can it help all of us, right? And so it's trying trying to get get away from that comparison and like you're better at this, you're better and you're better, you know. It's more like we all bring something to the table and we can all that we can all value it, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Absolutely. In fact, that's what our schools, that's the foundation of our schools is that idea of focusing on people's what we call their power traits. Oh, yeah. And then and then um helping them find their their element and yeah, you know, just what's that thing that they're they're good at and they enjoy and they can get in the zone really easily.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

And get and contribute, right? Like help other people with like that's so much joy when you're doing something you're good at, you enjoy, and then it helps other people is like it's like a wonderful thing, right? And it is and that gets into that like team spirit of like, yes, we're all working together, but we can also bring our own individual things to to to the table and celebrating that. Like, I'm really trying to teach Rosie now to celebrate other people's strengths, you know, if it feels good and it can lift us, it can lift us all up. And some of the best work I've done in my career is when I collaborate, right? I mean, really the best work I've done. So we're all better when we work together. I mean, that's another thing I remind Rosie's like, we're all better when we work together, you know?

SPEAKER_00 18:24

So yeah, I'm okay smart on my own. I'm really smart the more people I get, you know, in the group with you.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

I love that. I'm gonna start saying that. I'm okay smart when I'm it's true though. It's true. Like at NPR, I had this, she just retired. I had this producer that we traveled all over the world together. And we, Jane Greenhaush is her name, and she's a co-author on almost all my stories, but we just when we work together, it was so fun, it's so pleasurable because we just jived. And I like on my own, it's just oh, you know, you bring out the best in each other. Yeah, and it's more, I mean it's just so much more pleasurable. And actually, neuroscience tells us that that, like, you know, we're cooperative creatures, right? Species, and like it can be really fun to succeed on your own, but it is like euphoria when you succeed with other people, it really is. So I hope to give that to my kid, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Yeah. Okay, uh, another parent question. This is from Robin. How do you propose getting an entire weird society to buy into raising happy, helpful humans through ancient culture teachings? I can get my household in tune, but my toddler isn't getting ancient culture teaching at school. In ancient culture teaching, the entire community was involved. It is not that case in our weird society. Yes, that is true.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

That is a hundred percent true. And I would say a couple things. I'd say, number one, we don't have to change the world. We don't, you know, like we don't have to like what I've seen in the last five years, but both in our house, but also with our friends and the people that email me and the peop the parents I talk to is, you know, very small changes inside the home or in the family make a huge difference in a kid's life. Like huge difference. You know, studies show that just, you know, one like aloe parent, right? So one extra adult in the child's life that really cares for them and loves them reduces the risk of depression, you know. And so I you don't we don't have to change the whole thing to make a big difference. And in fact, behavioral psychology tells us that like the way we really change is with small, small things. That's how we make permanent changes, is when we make little small things. So I I would say don't don't worry so much about making massive changes and in changing the whole system because we can't. It's it's not, you know, you can't. Um, but I I think just paying attention to the most important relationship in the child's life, which is with the parents, you know, and in the home environment is the most important environment. And the other thing I would say is there's been studies done with indigenous parents and families in California, you know, uh families that move from Mexico to California, uh, and so they're first generation Americans, the kids are. And the studies look at like, well, how do how do the kids adjust, right? Because they're in this home that's very cooperative and very gathered parent-like, um, but then they go to school in this very competitive environment. Um, Barbara Rogoff did those studies with her grad students, and and it's really interesting. She shows that the kids are really good at knowing, okay, when I'm at the home, I'm cooperative and I I work together. And and and then when I'm in school, I'm competitive. And they're very good at like differentiating between the two places and kind of the rules. And so I I I think that you can have both. I think that you kids can learn to be cooperative and working together in the home and and grow up in this place where they don't feel this need to to fight and have conflict to get what they want, right? to and to succeed. And then they can also go into the school system where it's like it it is it is more more that way. And I think kids are smarter than than we realize at adjusting and figuring out where where the rules apply. But I feel her I feel her pain about it, you know, it would be wonderful if it happened everywhere at every moment, but it's just not the world we live in. And um but I'm so grateful to have other skills and other strategies for the home. Because I I do think that there's a lot of data that show it's the most important part, most important place. The home. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And the relationship with the parents, you know and I think sometimes we in America we think, oh, it what matters is the school and the peers and you know and the kids don't care about us. And I think that's I think that's shooting ourselves in the foot. I think kids care about what their parents think and the connection they have with their parents their whole life. I mean let's be honest. My my I'm I'm almost 50. My mom passed away two years ago and I still care deeply about what she thought. Yeah. And about what you know and I still wanted to please her and I still wanted us to get along and so a 13, 14, 15 year old absolutely still cares, even if they don't admit it deep in their heart, you know. And so I think really focusing on that and like what I can do as a mom and a parent and in my home is just going to give the kid a gift, a total gift. You're going to teach them how to cooperate in a society that doesn't really know that very well. That's a huge gift and a huge skill advantage and skill.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Well and so you're you're right at the edge of this with Rosie where peers will continue to become more yeah a bigger influence in their lives.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

I mean how do you feel like you're you will deal with those things of well you know Susie gets to do that and Tammy gets to do this and and I don't yes you know I I think it's one it's recognizing that I matter the most and my my husband right our family we matter the most um our church matters too you know like we've gone back to church and I think that's really helped with some of this is like seeing other families that value similar things, you know um but I there's a book by Gabor Matei. I don't know if you've if you've read it like Hold on to your children. It's a beautiful book. It it discusses this and it discusses this idea of like we let go too soon we let go too soon of our importance in children's lives and we release it to the peer too early. And I'm not saying the peers aren't important and I'm not saying that this doesn't happen. But I think if we just kind of give in and say well now she's 12 and 13 and so the peers that matters I can't do anything. Oh I think we're doing our kids a disservice and that's what his book is arguing too is that we have to hold on to the fact that we do matter we are more important than the peers. Even I would argue until you know they the even when they leave the house in some ways I mean I think that there's a myth in our society that the peers are are the drivers in what's important and yes there is a shift towards that but if you look at like like how kids were raised in the past in this culture and you look at how kids are raised in other cultures the parents are the most important for a lot longer time and stay important. And so this idea that the peers become the most important thing is a very new weird invention. And and so I don't I'm not gonna buy into it and I'm gonna continue to be that guiding North Star for her. And I I I really am because I think it's the most I think for kids' mental health I think it's really important. Does that mean coddling her and suffocating her no she's still got a time she's still autonomy is still really really important but the guidance still comes from me and not the peers.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

I mean the peers are going to do it but I'm gonna be the strongest force and hold on to that in her book Hunt Gather Parent Michaeline makes reference to the parent mindset when it comes to giving children more responsibility in which we often tell ourselves things like it's my job. It's easier to just do it myself. I'm too busy my child is too young or not ready. Oh I don't want to be a nag we sometimes do this with other adults as well one idea from this conversation that will stay with me is Michaeline's reframing of autonomy as adventure that small shift in language changes everything. When we think about giving others autonomy it can sound like we're stepping back and letting them figure things out on their own but adventure feels different. Adventure suggests curiosity exploration manageable risk and the excitement of discovering what we're capable of it's not about leaving others to navigate the world alone it's about creating opportunities for them to stretch and grow and build confidence through that experience children and adults alike are searching for that same feeling the chance to try something new to take on a meaningful challenge or step just beyond their comfort zone we may have different appetites for risk but nearly all of us thrive when we're given opportunities to explore to contribute and to discover what we're capable of for this episode's challenge I invite you to create one small adventure this week either for yourself or for a child in your life it doesn't need to be extreme in fact the best adventures rarely are try a new route home visit a place you've never explored learn a new skill let your child take on a responsibility they've never had a chance to do before or maybe it's a friend that you're going to put a challenge in front of or a colleague say yes to an experience you might normally avoid then take a moment to notice what was learned what was a surprise and how did that sense of adventure change a previously held perspective it's often that when we are willing to step into something unfamiliar to discover something new and learn what we can do that we find our element I hope you found some value in today's episode. If so please take a moment to leave a positive review on the podcast platform you use and share the episode on social media. If you visit the Element is everything website you'll find additional resources on today's topic. Invite friends and family to join our community of listeners as we ponder science, perspectives and strategies around personal accountability, courageous learning and clear decision making for a sense of connection to ourselves, others and life