Don't Misunderstand Me - Why We Do the Things We Do

Joseph Porter  00:07

If humans are naturally drawn to learning, why doesn't everyone enjoy school? If everyone has unique gifts and talents, why do some people feel dumb, depressed and insignificant? If you want something different, you need to do something different. Welcome to the element is everything podcast where we discuss real-world experiences, research, and strategies around finding your element, what it is, how to do it, and how to support others in developing it. Please welcome your host with over 30 years of experience in public education and independent learning, Terry Nova check.

Terri Novacek  00:49

Imagine the important relationships in your life like family, friends and colleagues, being peaceful, open, trusting and cooperative. Feeling understood, and understanding others. Feeling respect. Hello, I'm Terry and our theme this month is connection is key. Last week, we explored executive functioning skills and their importance as the foundation to learning and life. Today we hear from Lois Ingber, licensed clinical social worker and certified trainer for positive discipline, who shares with us how a focus on our feelings helps us best navigate the behaviors of others. Welcome, Lois. I know to simply introduce you as a social worker and a certified trainer does not do you justice. So can you begin by sharing the many settings in which you've worked.

Lois Ingber  01:54

Thanks, Terry, for inviting me to join you today. Yeah, I worked in a variety of settings throughout my career in private practice in the hospital setting and psychiatry clinic and in schools, and I love to have the opportunity to bring a lot of my experiences together as I support our parents and our staff and our kids and our team learning ways to build relationships of mutual respect that support our students to learn. I also want to say that I came to Element first as a parent with my daughter in community Montessori and offered my services as a consultant, and I am now part of the team which is just very fulfilling for me.

Terri Novacek  02:51

And your daughter also attended, Dimensions Collaborative, right DCS?

Lois Ingber  02:56

Yes, she did for one year and she's now a first-year college student and her education has prepared her well. So we're very, very grateful.

Terri Novacek  03:10

So what are you seeing is the top reasons, families or teachers are turning to you for support?

Lois Ingber  03:22

So many times it has to do with helping students to focus to address what we might call misbehaviors, disruptive behaviors, anger displays, various forms of challenging behaviors, which are kind of garden variety, parenting challenges, and teacher challenges.

Terri Novacek  03:55

Is there a trend in what is triggering the behaviors?

Lois Ingber  04:03

No, it's kind of all over the map. There is a lot of defiance and defiance can have different underlying motivations. And we're talking about motivation because in our positive discipline model, which is based in Larian psychology, all behavior has a purpose. And so we can identify that there might be discouragement from feeling disempowered, or feeling disconnected, disrespected, not feeling capable. And so giving up as well as a sense of entitlement, which I find is pretty common in our world today, not just of kids, but of adults as well. So the person who's trying to get someone to do something is always in the least powerful position, the person who's in the position to say, yea or nay, holds the power. So, when we see defiance, it could be because the child is refusing, because I don't feel capable, or refusing because I have the power and you can't make me or really is giving up, and so forth. So based on what the adult is feeling in the moment, or in general, we can identify the purpose in the behavior. I believe, and I know in our school, we all believe every child can learn, and learning starts at birth and is lifelong. So if a child is having difficulty learning, and I put quotation marks around that term, most likely, and I would say 100% of the time, although others may disagree, it's because we, as the adults haven't found the right curriculum, or the right interest, or the right relationship or encouragement to invite that child to feel capable. So when I'm talking with parents and teachers, I make a point to emphasize that even if a student has special challenges, and are in special ed, we really want to work against them, adopting the belief that it's me, and that we always look to find accommodations or different programs so that students can feel capable and are making progress.

Terri Novacek  06:59

Recognizing differences, rather than labeling disabilities.

Lois Ingber  07:05

Yes, always looking for strengths and building on interests.

Terri Novacek  07:09

So you've mentioned something, a minute ago which was really an aha moment for me when I went through the positive discipline training around the mistaken goals. And that it's about what the adult feels in the moment where I think it might be the first thought that it's about the behavior, you know, this type of behavior means this, but instead, it's what the adult feels in the moment. Can you explain that a little bit more?

Lois Ingber  07:41

Sure. So this speaks to the relationship and the status or nature of the relationship. So I'll just share a little bit of theory to help explain this, from Alfred Adler. Most people know Freud, Jung, and Adler as the three patriarchs of the modern field of psychology. And most people have heard of Freud and Jung not so much about Adler, but Adler's theory has stood the test of time and science. And it's actually quite simple and understandable for everyone, not just psychologists. In fact, that was his goal in starting Child Guidance clinics in Vienna, and then bringing them to the United States is to teach parents and teachers about psychology so we can help our children and ultimately help society. So here's my, a little bit longer than an elevator speech of two minutes. But I think it'll make sense when we feel connected, respected, encouraged, empowered, and safe our sense of belonging which is feeling connected and loved, and therefore our beliefs and behavior are more likely to fall on the socially useful side of life, leading to personal and social harmony and contribution. And relationships go along pretty well when they're on the horizontal plane of mutual respect. However, if we feel disconnected, disrespected, discouraged, disempowered, or unsafe, our sense of belonging and significance is thwarted, and our beliefs and behavior are more likely to fall on the socially useless side of life. There is personal and social disharmony demonstrated through mistaken ways of belonging, which looked more like self-protection, or self-elevation. So what does that all mean? It means that behavior takes place in context. And we can look to the impact in this case, the feelings the adult feels in the moment, as a clue to what the child is experiencing in that moment, which is great, because then we can understand what that child is experiencing, be aware of it, shift what we're doing so that we can offer inexperienced the child that is more encouraging and empowering and respectful on the mistaken and goal chart. Our feelings lead us to identify if the child is seeking undue attention or misguided power, or getting even through revenge, or giving up through assumed inadequacy, or trying to maintain a one above position through entitlement. So we always look to our feelings, because that is the clue. That's the path to understand what the child is experiencing at the moment.

Terri Novacek  11:00

Can you think of a specific example that would help illustrate what you're saying?

Lois Ingber  11:08

Sure. So let's say the child is supposed to be doing their schoolwork, they're at home and asks mom for a glass of water, or to come to sit with me, or is continuing to ask questions or be distracting, and the parent feels annoyed or irritated, likely that child at the moment is seeking undue attention. And it's not just that attention is insignificant, it's really for me about recognition. So the message is, notice me involve myself usefully. And so the parent might say something like, I love you. And I'll spend time with you later. And there are other tools that we can use. So that would help us understand about undue attention. If it's time to do homework, schoolwork, and the parent reminds the child to do the whole work. And the child says, No, I'm not gonna do it. And there's an argument or fighting about it, the parent feels angry or challenged or threatened or defeated, the likely goal is misguided power. Because the child doesn't want to be told what to do. Right? And that message is, give me choices. I want to feel empowered in this moment. I don't. And so we might want to, in the moment, offer limited choices, do you want to work on this now and save this for later? Do you want to take a break now and then come back to it, so that we offer the experience of the child having some power because that's what that goal is about? If, again, time to do schoolwork, parents is the time to do your work. And the child says, No, I'm not doing this. But you have to do it. I don't care. I don't want to. But look at the grades, your grades have been so low. And the child says, Well, that's all you care about is my grades, you don't care about me. The parent is likely feeling hurt or disappointed, most likely, and usually, because the child also feels hurt. And so there's the revenge of not doing the schoolwork to get even because it's so important to the parent. So the child is saying I'm hurting, validate me validate my feelings, I matter my feelings matter. And so we want to be sure to validate the feelings, not take them personally. Take responsibility, be accountable for ways that we might have contributed to the child feeling hurt.

Lois Ingber  13:55

Finally, again, the same scenario, not doing the work. the parent reminds, and the child says, I can't I don't get this. Well, I think if you just stay with it, and work on it, you'll get it. No, I can't in the parent starts to give up or feels helpless or hopeless. Because the child also does and has assumed that they're incapable. That message is, don't give up on me show me a small step. I do want to feel successful, but I don't. And so if we can break the task down into small steps, point out past successes, offered to work with them till they can learn a little bit on their own, and then give them an opportunity, then we're changing that experience, which hopefully helps shift the belief to I am capable. So I want to point out Terri, you'll notice I use the same example of not doing work, right? So if we check in with our feelings, we're going to be able, again to identify what is the source of the discouragement? Because it can be different, depending on the context and the circumstances. That's great. 

Lois Ingber  15:19

Do you run into instances where there's a difference of opinion in the home on parenting? In that same situation? Could a parent be feeling one thing and another parent feeling another about the same behavior? And what do you do, then? It's very common Terri. And it reflects different approaches, sometimes to parenting. And so this moves us into considering one of our other concepts in Adlerian psychology, which is about kindness, and firmness. While kindness does not mean being nice, and firmness does not mean being mean. It means respecting the dignity of the child and the other person, as well as my own dignity, and the needs of the situation. The parents usually land on one side or the other, more on the kind side, or more on the firm side, usually how we were raised, it involves having a conversation where we can take a look that both are needed, we need to both be kind and connect and validate and be firm, meaning respecting the reality, it might be saying, I see how much you're enjoying your video game. And, and that's the magic word not but and it's time to do your schoolwork. That's one difference that we see. And sometimes one parent has more patience than the other, we can also look to our learning success model and power traits. And see what are some ways that we can help parents speak the child's learning language, we can also look at love languages because how we relate and how we encourage is different for everyone. So we want to be able to have parents understand to align their goals that both really want the best for their child, and to be able to make agreements together and focus on solutions, not on the past, but what agreements can we make that work for everybody?

Terri Novacek  17:45

Well, it's something that comes to mind for me is, there might be a different motive or reason for the desire, you know, maybe one parent is feeling like, you know, I want you to be the best out of all my friends, kids, another parent just wants to, you know, feel good about themselves. And so I guess you would say in this instance, they, they just need to understand that while they might have a different reason, their goal is still the same, that the child feels good, and then do well.

Lois Ingber  18:21

Sure. And if a parent has an ambition for their child, it will be helpful in using your example that they want their kid to get the best grades and get into the best schools, etc, we would want to look for ways the child is responding to that because most likely that's self-defeating,

Terri Novacek  18:43

right.

Lois Ingber  18:44

And so we would want to explore that, and help the adult to think about that may be in a different way of what their child needs in order to develop the life skills and characteristics they need for success, not just in school, but in life. And in our classes and our training, we usually start with what we call the two lists. The first is the challenging behaviors, what are kids doing that push our buttons and we typically get things like defiance, or aggression, or shutting down, or sibling conflict, whatever it is laziness, laziness, we could brainstorm a whole lot. And then we do what I call a kind of a GPS, and fast forward to when the child is now in their 20s or older and what are the life skills and characteristics we want them to have as adults, and we typically get things like responsible cooperative healthy, resourceful, compassionate work ethic and so forth. And so many times parents and teachers are asking the question, how do we get my child or student to stop doing this or start doing that? And it's really more of a question of what does my child needs in order to develop these life skills and characteristics. And these are, by the way, universal. I've taught in China, we have many people around the world teaching positive discipline, and the lists are exactly the same. If we can help bring awareness to the parent of what they're doing, and how they're interacting with their child, or teachers, with their students, through role-playing, so that you can get inside to understand what the child is thinking to feel and deciding, we can help educate about the tools that bring our kids to developing these life skills and characteristics. If a parent is set on making sure their child is going to get the best grades and get into the best schools, that's their choice. And our job is not to convince them otherwise. It's really just to offer education around that.

Terri Novacek  21:26

So if I do my two lists, and for the current behaviors, I find that I have a child that displays defiance quite often. But yet the life skill that I want for that child is cooperation, what are you suggesting I do to help that child move from a defiant child to a cooperative adult?

Lois Ingber  21:52

Sure, cooperation is intrinsic. And everyone has power. From the day they're born. Everyone has power is simply the ability to act, you can get into a power struggle with a two-day-old baby. So the question is, how do we use our power together in such a way that it invites the cooperation, many traditional approaches to leadership, and I consider parenting and teaching leadership roles have been through doing too, which is force, or coercion, or threat of punishment, or doing for where we give up our power and use rewards or enticement. So the idea is to use tools that help us do together so that children are using their power and their intuition, and their creativity in ways that contribute. And we all bring those resources together to make agreements to, live life in a mutually respectful way. So what are those tools? Well, we can ask, instead of telling, I came across this expression, recently from a book on education. And I've been sharing it and I hope it'll be useful here. That is our role as leaders that we can consider leading with our ears, right rather than our mouth. Because that puts us in the position of empowering of having confidence in our kids. conveying that message, I believe you have good ideas, and I want to hear them. And let's see what we can come up with, together. So, so asking, instead of telling, making agreements together, connecting before correcting, using the family meeting, or the class meeting to invite everyone's ideas on how to solve problems, using encouragement, having opportunities to contribute through jobs in the home or in the classroom, learning from mistakes, using them as opportunities to learn with dignity intact. Lots of tools and certainly understanding the brain that when we're in a lid state, we're not using our executive functioning, and we need to be able to teach self-regulation which happens from adults so that kids can identify their emotions and have options to self regulate. These are all part of our social-emotional skills, that positive discipline is teaching is for all of us to learn these skills so that we have relationships that benefit everyone.

Terri Novacek  24:55

Well, it is very, very motivating. You know that like a child or any person that is in a place of defiance, as they move towards cooperation, it does feel better to be cooperative than to be defiant. And sometimes it takes a while to get comfortable with that. Would you agree?

25:19

Well, I share, I appreciate you bringing this up, I share something that I call the dignity double bind. Like being between a rock and a hard place, you've got this option, that's not such a great option. And then I've got this choice, oh, that's not such a great choice either. And so when it comes to dignity, everyone has dignity and worth, nobody is worth more or less when it comes to being human. And so when we approach, I'll just say leadership, but it's really any relationship. Where it's vertical, there's a superior or inferior, one's above one's below, the person that's in the below position, the one down position doesn't stand for that, and will push back. And this is where our mistaken goals are expressed. Or if they feel in the one up in title position, they want to keep it and keep the other person below, if I'm told, go do your homework, I have to think, okay, if I do my homework, because mom's telling me, I give up my dignity and self-respect, not a great choice. If I don't do my homework, because mom's telling me, I keep my dignity and self-respect. But I still have a problem. Because mom's mad at me, teachers expecting this from me. And I might agree I should do my homework, but not at that cost, right? Because we tend as a society to put kids in that one down position, when we start using tools that invite cooperation that comes from a place of mutual respect for our kids, 're not always ready to trust that. And so they might test us to see if we really mean it. And as you say, it does feel better to cooperate. But our kids need to trust that that's really what this is all about, that their dignity will be respected. So that might take some time. Or for some kids, they're gonna respond right away to being asked what's next, as opposed to going do this or go do that. It really has to do with status. And we can either live on the horizontal plane or the vertical plane. And I think most people want to live on the horizontal plane.

Lois Ingber  25:29

Right? Well, I see what you're saying. And so you know, you want to make sure that everybody's understanding cooperation, the mean, both sides, not, you do what I say that makes you cooperative.

Lois Ingber  27:56

Well, that would be compliance, or obedience, not cooperation, that's intrinsic, and, and is voluntary.

Terri Novacek  28:05

Great. Well, as always, Louis, like, I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours about this. And I really appreciate your wisdom and the experience that you bring, are there any other thoughts that you feel would be really important for a parent that is for anybody, you know, whether it's Parent-Child, you know, spousal relationships, friendships, professional relationships, things that help people build connectivity, or improved motivation.

28:38

Thanks, Terry. So that'll take another 10 podcasts, maybe. But let's see how I could. I actually have two points that I'd like to also share. One has to do with how we think of mental health, those life skills and characteristics that I was mentioning, and we can make those lists a lot longer, both of them. According to Adler, that's what mental health looks like when we're cooperative when we're contributing when we're healthy. When we're compassionate. And Adler said the meaning of life is contribution. So if we have those life skills and characteristics, we're more likely going to contribute to making life better for all of us going forward. The idea of diagnosis I want to offer because a lot of people are given diagnoses. And there's a lot of stigma around mental health issues or whatever diagnosis our kids or even we might be given. I'd like to encourage us to think about a diagnosis as a description, but it doesn't explain behavior. And when we look at shifting beliefs, it again is about the external experiences that we create for those around us to feel that sense of belonging and significance. Even medications can benefit by shifting mood, but they don't treat relationships. And so we still need to do the work of encouragement and empowerment and helping our kids build the skills they need to live life. The other point I would like to make is that we want to look to giving our kids the kind of experiences where it's more likely that they will develop the beliefs I matter, I count, I'm safe and respected. I have choices and capable, and I am needed. And this is where giving opportunities to contribute plays a big role. We have a lot of challenges in our world today. And if we're just thinking about ourselves in our immediate sphere in our immediate lives, we might be missing creating the inspiration and potential for the contributions that are needed by all of us. Now, I appreciate one of your previous podcasts, emphasizing how important it is for kids to have jobs in the home, even a two-year-old can help sort colors for laundry. And so I  really like to emphasize that it's about the contribution that is what brings us mental health. I just want to let people know that we do offer parenting seminars during the school year and if people have questions to feel free to reach out.

31:46

Thank you, Lois, not only for the work you do but your enthusiasm for sharing your experience and knowledge with others is greatly appreciated. In our conversation, Lois refers to the right relationship for encouragement, and how we relate and how we encourage is different for everyone. On the Element is Everything website under Show Notes for this episode, you can find the chart of mistakes and goals which Lois references, as well as information about love languages. My challenge for you this next week is to use at least one of those tools to self-reflect on your own perspective. And then compare that to a key relationship in your life. While Lois and I spoke of mistaken goals between parent and child in the interview, they can apply across a wide span of relationships in ages, even in business. If you are a manager feeling annoyed and irritated by an employee, it could be that employee only feels a sense of belonging when they have your attention. whether good or bad. Try redirecting the employee's attention to useful tasks that help you connect in a more positive manner. And love languages are not just for intimate relationships. We all have ways we show others we care and how we prefer to receive appreciation from others. I may feel I am showing the people I work with I care by my acts of hard work. But if their preferred language is words of appreciation, they aren't receiving the message. They need me to acknowledge them. If this is starting to sound like way too much to keep track of just remember, begin with yourself. Know thyself. Once you know yourself, you'll find you have the time, the skill and the energy to better connect with others. And who knows a better connection with others could be the path to finding your element. Enjoy the journey and thank you for listening.